Link to the related website that has useful info: the Age of Nelson.

This forum is devoted to the Royal Navy during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1793 - 1815).
And why not the other navies of the period?
To avoid spam, you must register to be able to post - it's free.

FAQ         Register         Profile         Search         Log in to check your private messages         Log in
HMS FAVOURITE - prizes c 1763-1764
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ageofnelson.org Forum Index -> Age of Nelson
 
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
RM BIDDLE



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 5

Post Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: HMS FAVOURITE - prizes c 1763-1764 Reply with quote

Friends,

I am seeking to prove or disprove the claim by Howard I Chapelle that a vessel named CHALEUR, was a prize of HMS FAVOURITE sometime between July 1763 and July 1764, and condemned at New York, in Colonial America. HIC alleges that CHALEUR was an American vessel captured from the French. Thus far in my research, I believe his claim is unsupportable for a variety of reasons, however...

I saw this Forum and thought I would ask if any are familiar with the whereabouts of HMS FAVOURITE at that time, and of any prize vessels taken by her. My intention - when time and funds allow, is to search her log in the National Archives (ADM57/346-347).

Thanks for whatever information or further guidance you might provide.
_________________
Randle M Biddle
WINDSHIP STUDIOS
windships@earthlink.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ionia



Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 46

Post Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you clarify your first paragraph? As peace had broken out in 1762, why was CHALEUR taken as prize by the FAVOURITE (which, according to one source, paid off in England in March, 1763 and, when recommissioned later in the year, was stationed in the Irish Sea). Under what flag was the CHALEUR sailing when allegedly taken as prize?
_________________
Ionia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alexlitandem



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 129

Post Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randle,

Give us a link to your : / quote / source / twitter / facebook / etc., / ... 'reference' to 'the claim', in context?

Just so we can all follow the plot?

And, hopefully, help.

thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM BIDDLE



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 5

Post Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:49 am    Post subject: HMS FAVOURITE and CHALEUR 1763-1764 Reply with quote

OK - here we go...

The History of American Sailing Ships; Chapelle, Howard Irving; Norton 1935, p 40. This passage has no footnote or other attribution by Chapelle.

"The CHALEUR is said to have been an American-built schooner that had been captured from the French by the British frigate FAVORITE (sic) on the American coast and condemned at New York. Here, she was finally purchased in 1764, for the Royal Navy."

Here are my issues with this claim - in no particular order:

1. The name CHALEUR was given to this vessel after she was purchased in 1764.

2. CHALEUR was not rigged as a schooner until the last 45-60 days of her life (verified in her last log book in the National Archives at Kew)

3. As Iona writes - by that time the French conflict was over, so why would a prize be taken?

4. The vessel that became CHALEUR was purchased at Boston, not New York (verified in Adm Colvill correspondence at National Archives, Kew)

5. There is no record in the New York Admiralty Prize Court documents of any vessel of that name, or similar size or description having been taken by any vessel, let alone HMS FAVOURITE (verified via National Archives and Records Administration correspondence)

So... to finally put this to bed, I have asked if any of our forum members was familiar with the whereabouts of HMS FAVOURITE at that time, and..
If need be, I will make a search of her log at Kew for that period (but can't afford to do that any time soon).

There is a lot more to the story - the vessel I think became CHALEUR, but cannot yet confirm, biographical and business info on the owner/Master of that vessel, etc.

Thanks for your comments/questions and request for clarification
_________________
Randle M Biddle
WINDSHIP STUDIOS
windships@earthlink.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PMarione
Site Admin


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 883

Post Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Colledge:
Chaleur, schooner 12, 117bm, 67x20. Purchased 1764 in N. America. Sold 6-12-1768. First schooner in the RN.

Prizes were often condemed years after their captures: in the 1830's they were still distributing prize money for ships captured during the Napoleonic wars.

@+P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RM BIDDLE



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 5

Post Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:22 am    Post subject: HMS FAVOURITE - prizes c 1763-1764 Reply with quote

re Colledge - thanks, I have that reference. Some particulars in dispute.
Her Admiralty draft made at the end of her life shows but three gun ports a side. The dimensions are slightly different. And (I would have to check this) but I believe she was measured at Woolwich in November 1768 and found rotten, was sold out of service thereafter.
The primary materials on these early vessels is fragmentary at best.
_________________
Randle M Biddle
WINDSHIP STUDIOS
windships@earthlink.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ionia



Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 46

Post Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sloop FAVOURITE seems, from secondary sources, to have spent the war in European waters (and is famously known as the joint captor of the "greatest prize of all the oceans" of that war, the Spanish Register Ship HERMIONE in May, 1762).

You have probably seen the notation on the CHALEUR in Rif Winfield's "British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792": "probably built at Marblehead...believed to be mercantile schooner in French hands taken by FAVOURITE...purchased for RN 1/1764 by Lord Colville.....sold Woolwich 1768..
_________________
Ionia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM BIDDLE



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 5

Post Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:00 am    Post subject: HMS FAVOURITE - prizes c 1763-1764 Reply with quote

Thanks Ionia - actually I am not familiar with that reference. I will speculate that the author relied on Chapelle for that information, coupled perhaps with other (primary) sources that indicate Colvill had instruction to purchase "six Marblehead schooners or sloops"

As we know, secondary sources tend to build one upon the other without validation, and only occasionally do we see primary source research.

The distinguished naval architect and author William Baker, based his reconstruction of the schooner GASPEE (in company with Chaleur at that time) on the Chapelle reconstruction of Chaleur, neither of them knowing that Chaleur was a single mast sloop during her RN service, and not a schooner.

Thanks also for the comments about the location of service for Favourite. That is consistent with snippets of her career that I have seen over the years.

Incidentally, this whole stern chase began about 1968 when I made a very crude model based on Chapelle's reconstruction of her as a schooner in the book referenced earlier in my posts. For some reason, the dear girl has captured and held my interest all these years...
_________________
Randle M Biddle
WINDSHIP STUDIOS
windships@earthlink.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM BIDDLE



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 5

Post Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: HMS FAVOURITE - prizes c 1763-1764 Reply with quote

Friends,

Writing to inform that since my original query, much has been learned about this vessel Chaleur. And the story of her origin will be told in my book, which is well-along and hopefully will be in print before the end of 2018.

For the moment, she was not a vessel captured by HMS Favourite.

If you care to provide me your "real names" it would please me to include you in my list of contributors to my research.

All good wishes for this new year. And thanks again for the privilege of exchanging with you on this topic.

Randy Biddle
Star, Idaho USA
windships@earthlink.net
_________________
Randle M Biddle
WINDSHIP STUDIOS
windships@earthlink.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ageofnelson.org Forum Index -> Age of Nelson All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ   Search    Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Nun