Peter Goodwin strikes again!

[PMarione]

Work commences on new HMS Victory memorial.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/WorkCommencesOnNewHmsVictoryMemorial.htm

The issue of the real spot where HN died has been discussed at lenght in the Mariner's Mirror and PG's "discovery" is complete b...

PG has made more to deface the Victory than Villeneuve and all the Franco-Spanish fleet.

@+P

[alexlitandem]

Patrick,

You obviously are upset at something ( or things ) that you believe / know / feel may have been done to Victory in the course of its un-ending restoration / on-going preservation.

I have a couple of Peter G's books on my shelf here and have found them helpful reference tools.

So what, specifically has pxxxxd you off here?

Is it the idea that all we are seeing is another piece of `hype'? Or, is there a more scholarly concern you have?

I don't want to entice you into libel [Oh, O.K., go on then... ] but am sure I'm not alone in wanting to learn more about your concerns?

Tell it like it is? And let the evidence be free?

Is this just another case of `establishment' hype and PR?

Or scholarly analysis?

In any event, the marvellous bloody ship is enough of a monument for me.

The bits that are still real, I mean.

[/b]

[PMarione]

I have nothing against PG the author: his books are certainly useful and better than many others.

Problem is with PG the curator and keeper of the Victory.

If Victory is maintained by the SNR, she is still under RN flag and so under the command of the Portsmouth's Admiral (wathever his rank is) who has other priorities than that old piece of junk in the middle of his base.
So PG has "carte blanche" to implement any dubious fantasy without any serious archaeological research like a stupid "surgeon" table on the main deck (if I remember well) or moving the traditional place of death of HN. (I'll try to locate the articles in the MM when I have a minute).
I have told somewhere the story of plastic animals to be put in the manger.

Last 1st of May I was stranded in Paris with mothing to do (never go in Paris on a 1st of May it's probably the only day in the year whith absolutely all the museums and galleries closed). So I have gone to visit anew Napoleon's tomb at the Invalides.
The place is impressing and imposing - nobody will ever call me a napoleonist - and it force respect.

PG's Victory has became an attraction for children in the vein of Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean. No more soul, no more respect - and I have not the thiniest British patriotic fiber - just the only 1:1 Revell model in the world.

In summary, PG is an over-enthousiast who has to be kept on a short leash which he isn't by superiors who have other fish to fry.

Maybe it's my old gallican raising speaking but I feel that places like churches, monuments, mosques... must speak to the soul not to the wallet.

I was upset in the same way last time when I visited Nelson's tomb and discovered that it's kept behind gratings in the middle of a souvenir shop and disco coffee shop. I hope the canons of St Paul make good money out of it!

Maybe Peter has another story to tell.

@+P

[alexlitandem]

Patrick,

Thanks for the honesty and passion and speed of your response to us all.

This is `your' site, but you have, from its inception, urged debate - even bloody-minded argument - as part of its character.

There are many [ implicit ] aspects to your post and to the underlying issues; personally, I believe that the danger of `the bland leading the blind' is always to be anticipated and is to be deliberately safe-guarded against.

And that includes such societally / culturally / historically `significant' projects such as the restoration / preservation of, for example, Victory.

Recommendations to affect X, must be supported by arguments Y. Objective. Strategy. Rationale. Etc.,

We will leave C/B analyses to one side for the moment?

But competent judges are always needed when it comes to assessing proposals from, one hopes, competent proposers.

We should not allow Fiefdoms to emerge.

I think you should be specific in expressing your concerns. Not tonight, not in haste, not in anger or angst.

Then let's explore them together with the `great and the good', as may be helpful?

It is not Victory, qua Victory, perhaps that is the Disney-esque nightmare, but rather the inchoate whole of its location.

But let's get this `Victory' issue really aired?

Peter L? You are a passionately - and greatly informed - commentator here, what's your view?

Other, caring, readers here?

Is Victory in danger of disappearing, atom by atom, before its time?

Is Portsmouth degenerating into a gross and not even well-presented theme park? Or, is everything just fine?

Motives. Economics. All that is secondary.

Primary concern: is Victory in good hands?

Let's chat about this?

[histfan71]

I have visited Victory twice, once in 2001 and once in 2005 during the whole "Traflagar 200" celebrations. I appreciated the opportunity to walk the decks of that noble ship in the footsteps of Jervis, Nelson, Saumarez (sp?), Hood, and others. It was like I was able to reach out and touch the past.

I do agree with Patrick, that I would hate to see Victory turned into a Disney-esq exhibit. I live in Southern California, and I see Disney trivialze things everyday. I shudder to think of what they did to the Indiana Jones franchise, but I digress.

At least in 2005, on my last visit, I did not see Portsmouth turning into a theme park. I absolutely loved the Royal Navy Museum and I think it should be a model for museums everywhere, not just naval and military ones. Museums should be able to engage the visitors, to capture and hold their interest. That is why I feel strongly about interactive exhibits, and the ones in the RNM are outstanding, even though most were directed at children. I thought that the living history demonstrations at the Mary Rose exhibit were also good examples that targeted adult audiences.

[PMarione]

Don't worry: the new Indiana Jones is out this WE!!!!!!

[PMarione]

More on the Times today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4023428.ece

[PMarione]

The original article by P Goodwin, Where Nelson died. An historical riddle
resolved by archaeology is in The Mariner's Mirror, 1999, vol 85-3, pp 272-287.

In the Trafalgar Chronicle of the 1805 Club, 2000, pp 86-98, Heinrich Siemers, Where Nelson really died, definetly contradicts PG "great discovery".

By chance it's only a plate and it can easily be moved when PG retires.

@+P

[alexlitandem]

Patrick,

If `they' have `got it wrong'... I'll start by believing that if the evidence is coherent and compelling, and is further creatively as well as cogently presented... then PG will respond.

So, what are the very central arguments / points of evidence that you - implicitly - feel are being somehow ignored by PG?

( Maybe not all readers here have access to all materials you have drawn upon )

alex

[PMarione]

Pictures of Victory current facelift:

http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=157&Itemid=1

[PMarione]

I have posted the two articles at
http://www.ageofnelson.org/Article07.html
so everybody can do his own mind.

I stay with my original opinion.

@+P