HMS Venerable 1804/5

[Henry]

HMS Venerable was wrecked in Tor Bay on 24th November 1804.
One of her hands, Joseph Samain, had enlisted on to her at Chatham on 30th June 1794 when he was 21 years of age.
I have not been able to view the Pay Books or the Muster Rolls for the period after 1798, but according to the Allotment Register (ADM27/9) it would appear that his wife received a payment of 17.10 (£17 : 10s ?) on 22nd September 1805 and there is also the record “ to what time 22nd October 1805”. Finally there is the note: “paid off - 10.11” (10s:11d?).
I would be most grateful if someone could answer my two questions or give me advice.
A) I am anxious to discover when Joseph was in fact finally paid off and wondered whether that note in the Allotment Register was it: 22nd October 1805.
A lot must have happened in a very short time after that as on 31st August 1807 Joseph married a widow in Baltimore, Maryland. They lived at Fell’s Point and he worked first as a mariner and then as a rigger in the naval dockyards there. Presumably there was no conflict of loyalties at that time.
B) How did it come about that his wife received payment in September 1805 from the Allotment Registers of HMS Venerable 10 months after the ship was wrecked?
Many thanks,
Henry

[PMarione]

Henry,

I don't remember what was the "allotment" of pay allowed to relatives but as an AB your man was making £14/year ie about 22s/month. So maybe the 10.11 were his allotment for 1 month between 22 September and 22 October?

For your 2nd question, a good seaman was certainly not left unemployed by His Majesty even after a wreck! Anyway, people still received their pay after a wreck (or capture) till the obligatory court martial after a ship loss. Maybe you can check the date of the CM for the Venerable?

@+P

[Henry]

@+P,
Thank you for your helpful reply.
With respect to the CM, it took place at Plymouth on 11th December 1804 - still quite a time before the entry in the Allotment Register in late October 1805.
Capt Hunter, his officers & crew were all acquitted of blame apart from one man, a marine I believe, who was found guilty of stealing and severely punished.
I was interested in your point about the Navy finding use for a good hand, and wondered that, as hands were attached to ships, perhaps Venerable kept her books open while necessary salvage work was carried out.
With respect to Joseph Samain, I was surprised to see that, despite 10 years experience on Venerable, he was only rated an ordinary seaman. Still a reliable, strong man may have been what was needed at that time.
Best wishes,
Henry

[Henry]

@+P,
I should also have said that the allotment to his wife was 11s. 8d - presumably per month. It was paid by a Mr R Newry - would he have been Venerable's agent in a particular town? The figure of £17. 10 was listed (which would amount to 30 payments of 11s.8d). Then there were further amounts "charged on pay book" amounting to £26.18.4 . Finally there was the figure of 10s.11d against the note/heading "paid off".
Henry

[PMarione]

Are you sure that all his pay was coming from the Venerable? What I was implying was that he had been transfered on another ship.

As OS his rate of pay was £11.6s/year ie 17s.4d/month.

Why he was still an OS after 10 years must have depended of his abilities.

You raise an interesting point: who was paying the allotment in the various cities? I have no idea if it was some agent of the Navy Pay Office or a Navy Agent. For me the Navy Agents were only involved in prize money but some member of the forum may know more.

@+P

[Henry]

@+P
Thank you for your reply.
With respect to Joseph's pay, no I have not been able to see the paybooks for Venerable for 1804/5 (problem of my getting to Kew). All I have found so far is the allotment to his wife which was entered under the name of Venerable in ADM 27/9. I must make a thorough search of all the relevant books at Kew.
I know that in January 1804 when Venerable went into dry dock for survey, repair & refurbishment the officers & crew were put upon the Rippon. But that was all part of a planned program. Would that have happened after a wreck, I wondered.
I unerstand that his being rated able or not would depend on his ability, but I wondered whether it might also have been a function of the size of the crew. Would it have been easier or harder when you were one among say 700? Or would it not have mattered?
All best wishes,
Henry

[PMarione]

The original 1795 act is available at
http://www.1812privateers.org/NAVY%20ACT%201795.pdf
and it has the answers to my own questions:

[Henry]

@+P,
First, thank you very much for supplying the information concerning allotment and its payment. It is absolutely clear.
Two points arise - one anomoly & one question.
A) Although the Allotment Register had Joseph entered as an ordinary seaman he was in fact alloting 5d a day and that too was clearly stated. That is consistent with the payment of 11s.8d per 28 day (lunar) month.
B) I am interested that you concluded Mr Newry was a Receiver General of the Land Tax and not one of those serving London, Portsmouth, Plymouth or Chatham. Do you have any precise knowledge of Mr Newry or of any of the other officers or does this simply seem to be the most likely situation? You will understand my asking this question as one of my major interests is tracing the whereabouts of Joseph & his wife between 1805 & 1807 and Mr Newry could be significant. Joseph's family were Londoners, but Joseph might have lived anywhere before he went to the US.
Henry.

[PMarione]

A) There was a rise of pay after the mutinies of 1797.
37 Geo. III. c. 53

[Henry]

@+P
Thank you for all your research. That has given me a lot to work on. Should I discover anything more on these matters I will let you know.
Kew here I come - eventually!!
All best wishes,
Henry