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johns
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 17
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 Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: Medical histories |
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I wondered whether anyone knew if the NA held any medical records / injury info for royal navy servicemen.
I ask as John Clavell recieved a head injury at Trafalgar "which he never fully recovered from" - and was also injured other times as well. For the last two years of his life he was paralysed.
It is a strange question - but it would be really interesting to find out more about these things. The only source I could think of would be the Greenwich hospital, pensioners in papers - but I have no idea how to go about obtaining these  |
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PMarione
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think that medical records for the period no more exist except for some surgeon's diaries.
In the case of Calvell, he got a pension for wounds so you may be able to find his application at the NA.
Last edited by PMarione on Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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johns
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Thats fantastic, Thank you very much |
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johns
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think I just found the ref for his Greenwich hospital entry at:
ADM 6/248
However, whether I got the right reference remains to be seen! |
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chasbaz
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Athabasca, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm going to be interested in this sort of information, as my ggggfr was wounded in action in 1810 and was off for almost a year. Presumably treatment was first carried out by the ship's surgeon, but then what would happen? My guess is if the ship was a long way from home the patient could be landed somewhere where there were hospital facilities and eventually be repatriated. If sicklists survive they would show something. Did ships' surgeons keep their own logs, or were entries made in the ship's log about such things? Once home, what options were there for further treatment within the Navy? The Gladiator at Portsmouth seems to have been a static ship, and as well as being a venue for courts martial was apparently a hospital ship. Was the greenwich hostpital used for treatment or was it just a home for invalid pensioners - i.e. after being retired? My ggggfr did return to active(?) service but at the end of hostilities he was granted a pension for wounds. What admirality records exist for this? |
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PMarione
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Presumably treatment was first carried out by the ship's surgeon, but then what would happen? |
The RN was distributed across the world by "stations": Channel Fleet, East Indies, West Indies, Mediterranean, Ireland, etc., with various ports (varying with the fortunes of war) like Gibraltar, Malta, the Cape etc.
These outports had dockyards and hospitals or hospital ships where the sick and wounded where discharged.
At sea, a fleet or a squadron included hospital ships and surgeon's and doctors of the fleet.
Like all in the RN, there was "red tape" for the sick and wounded. Surgeon's had to keep logs etc.
I am not sure that many of these logs survived. There must be some trace in the muster books of the ships like "DD" (for discharged death) or "discharged sick" etc. I don't know about ships' logs as I have no experience.
Logs and muster books of hospital ships must be of iterest too as the shore hospitals papers like Gibraltar hospital.
| Quote: | | Once home, what options were there for further treatment within the Navy? |
The RN had its own hospitals in the major dockyards like Portsmouth or Plymouth. The best known is Haslar Hospital in Gosport that is still active.
When there was no bed left in the hospitals, sick and wounded were berthed in private houses (and I suppose when there was no hospital abroad).
I have no idea of what survive of these records.
| Quote: | | Was the greenwich hospital used for treatment or was it just a home for invalid pensioners - i.e. after being retired? |
GH was only a home for pensioneers even if it had its own infirmary. It was in no case a "hospital" in the modern sense.
| Quote: | | ...he was granted a pension for wounds. What admirality records exist for this? |
To get a pension for wound, the candidate had to apply to the Navy Board.
Records must exist somewhere at TNA or NMM.
The RN administration of the period comprized different "boards" beside the Admiralty Board, like the Navy Board and Transport Board.
There was a "Sick ad Wounded Board" who took in charge the administration of the medical administration of the RN (and of the POW).
Again I have no direct experience but there must be a lot of interesting records there.
Strangely, the medical history of the RN has not attracted many writers.
@+P |
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chasbaz
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Athabasca, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick,
Thanks (again) for your very helpful and informative reply. This is one of the things I really like about this forum, and I appreciate your efforts very much.
We shall see where we go with the naval medical history - it certainly is an interesting subject. I imagine the treatment options for officers were somewhat better than for seamen...
Regards,
Charles |
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PMarione
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Naval medical history is fascinating indeed and very neglected, like the treatment of the POW in UK, France, Spain, etc.
| Quote: | | I imagine the treatment options for officers were somewhat better than for seamen... |
I am not so sure: medicine was dreadful at the time for everybody.
Bleeding for fevers, purgatives and emetics...
Only war surgery was good if you survived the infections...
An interesting point was that at battle time, everybody was equal in the eyes of the surgeon: wounded were strictly treated in the order of arrival in the cockpit whatever their rank.
There is the well known story of Nelson waiting in line after being wounded at the Nile.
The counterpoint was that there was no sorting according the importance of the wound so you could well bleed to death waiting for the surgeon.
The only advantage for the officer was that he could afford his own doctor or surgeon and maybe get a better treatment.
@+ P |
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johns
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well I heard back from TNA - they reckon they couldn't find any entry for John Clavell entering Greenwich hospital...very strange.
Also they could not find the naval record of William Simpson Blount (John's son-in-law) despite him being in the Navy for almost 20 years. |
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PMarione
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Clavell was nominated a Lt of GH by the Admiralty and so I suppose he was not entered in the same books as the regular pensioneers.
He was part of the staff.
Commander Blount has certainly records at the TNA: at least his examination papers are at ADM107/51 ff262-265.
They didn't check well. Probably just the indexes. |
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johns
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Thank you again Patrick! I do not think I have got that - so I will order it!
It was interesting about John Clavell. I think half of the prob is that the cataloguing in TNA is pretty confusing on a whole - so which category to look for can remain a mystery |
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PMarione
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| I think that you will have to find some guide like the ones I quoted somewhere: they'll help you to find in what series of record to check. |
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kate.holt
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: John Clavell and Greenwich Hospital |
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John,
Have you managed to locate a reference for John Clavell's admission to GH? Many references I have found so far indicate he was in GH, and as you say its a matter of finding exactly where he was recorded.
If you are not persuing this let me know and I will try, though it will have to be via the internet. I dont see there is much to be gained with both of us asking them for the same peice of information. I have tonight ordered a copy of his passing certificate, 1797. If you do not already have it I will let you have the details once i get them.
Medical matters are a very interesting subject and one that isnt investigated much. In the early 1800s there wasnt much in the way of treatment for anything and I think we were lucky that any one survived long enough to produce the next generation, but we are here so it must have worked!
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Kate H |
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kate.holt
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: GH |
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Just a thought and apolgies for my ignorance if I should know better.
Were the out pensioners and In pensioners of GH recorded in the contempory Navy List?
I am wondering as John Clavell was "staff" maybe he would still be counted as a Naval Officer, and maybe other ordinary pensioners would be counted as well.
Also in the case of John Clavell, He was described as paralysed for the last part of his life, would he still have been "Staff" then, or would he have been converted to an ordinary in patient?
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Kate H |
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PMarione
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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You are thinking in a modern way.
At the time when you got a pension or a post it was for life.
The staff position at GH was more honorary than involving any real duty.
If you were paralised or blind didn't change your status.
The officers of GH are included in the Navy Lists but not the pensioners, so Clavell is in it.
Again when you were a Lt it was for life. To be employed you had to get a commission but that's another story.
The difference with the GH officers was that their had a salary and their half-pay went to GH.
You must think of GH as an old people's home not an hospital. |
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